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 i am zero

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zero




PostSubject: i am zero   Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:47 pm

And i travel the internet like many others searching for new understanding of society and greater wisdom...



But to spare you the bullshit i will be upfront and say i came accross this forum while searching freedomainradio, watching youtube clips and attempting to follow the effects of what appeared to be a prior controversy of some sort.

i have no interest in the controversy. just your views as i considered many of them reasonable but some perhaps impossible.

similiar to the utopia believers i suppose that i condemn to freely.

there do not appear to be many members here. perhaps the ones that are can help however.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism [url=]LNK[/url]


i realize this is a wiki link. All i ask is if someone could take a look under the criticism section and explain how your beliefs get around that.

i have one other post. Feel free to respond to that also.

I just can't find a solution to your views (though i hold some of the same in limited scope) are actually doable in practice for the reasons in the link, the other post, and i should add that though the state becomes corrupt it does limit corruption in early formation so wonder if without it the society just becomes corrupt quicker.


There is no actual example of this working on a large human population is there? Similiar to attempting to argue pure capitalism when it never actually existed on the level our world population is at?

i will most likley move along after a couple responses.


Thankyou for you time.
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CovOps

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PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:13 pm

Rather than just post a link and send us searching for what not, why don't you just ask about the specific points which bother you?

And population numbers have nothing to do with free trading anyway. If anything, the more traders the better...
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PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:25 pm

@CovOps wrote:
Rather than just post a link and send us searching for what not, why don't you just ask about the specific points which bother you?

And population numbers have nothing to do with free trading anyway. If anything, the more traders the better...




point taken.


1, anarcho-capitalism would not maximize utility

2. isn't it inevitable to just lead to chaos, tyranny, and corruption there in cannot be effectively governed so will become another, worse form of governance and state. Mass populations require strict governance do they not?

3. Can such a pure form exist, since within competitiion collusion is inevitable and must it be at least discouraged through law?

4. how does this solve population problems, ensure peace among people, or reduce overpopulation and misuse and overuse of resources?

5. capitalism requiring growth to exist. how can you have growth, and encourage growth in a planet with limited resources.
Would you not think current problems are not just the result of fiat currency but also the need for never ending growth ?

6.In a voluntary society without state, how do you prevent "force " from occurring and still force people to volunteer. In order to force volunteerism seems you would be walking the line of communsim or fascism. In order to make such a thing work you would need volunteers and be able to prevent any force. How can these to co-exist. And how would you prevent oppression or the ovewhelming gain of power and control of one entitiy over another to maintain equilbrium in the new society.

7. the idea of a representative republic instead of pure democracy being to limit the involvement of those not wanted in power, or without knowledge, but also to prevent the majority from witch hunting the minority. How would your society prevent the majority from taking the rights from the minority? Or prevent abuses to any one minority or even enact laws to protect individuals if the individual finds themself in the minority? For example people that wear black. if three percent of the population likes black how do you prevent the other ninety seven percent from attacking the three perecent or from enacting a law under majority rules outlawing black? How can you sustain this and limit power or the creation of power?

8. "The rising tide raises all boats" .
how does this apply to your views on globalism? I have yet to decide if i believe in this or not. I tend to also wonder if the feudalism days were more correct which thought of wealth as water and there only being so much. Take a glass of water and dump half into another part of the world you just moved half a glass of water. YOu didnt create water anymore than wealth is created. It exists, is transformed, is moved, but it is never created. Similiar to energy and how energy is transformed.
I lean toward this theory because i am not sure i believe in wealth creation just competition for existing wealth (and resources).
Which denies much of the fundamental aspects of globalism (i realize) but how does this work in your views?


It is a beginning. Much of it having to do with how it would work in actual practice not just theory. i will give it some more thought. i have more. Will also take a look at that book and i wanted to find some more info on the austrian school i haven't given that enough attention.

thankyou.
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RR Phantom

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PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:56 pm

Hello zero, welcome to the forum.

I will respond some of your points:

Quote :
And i travel the internet like many others searching for new understanding of society...
Which society? No, I'm not being facetious, I'm making a crucially important point.

Quote :
1, anarcho-capitalism would not maximize utility
Whose utility?

Quote :
3. Can such a pure form exist, since within competitiion collusion is inevitable and must it be at least discouraged through law?
Collusion is far easier when there is a government to support it through law. Governments are the biggest block to competition in history.

Quote :
5. capitalism requiring growth to exist. how can you have growth, and encourage growth in a planet with limited resources.
Through innovation and new technology.

Quote :
6.In a voluntary society without state, how do you prevent "force " from occurring and still force people to volunteer. In order to force volunteerism seems you would be walking the line of communsim or fascism. In order to make such a thing work you would need volunteers and be able to prevent any force. How can these to co-exist.
If you want protection from force you may hire private security agencies on a voluntary basis. BTW "forc[ing] volunteerism" is a contradiction in terms.
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zero




PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:38 pm

Nemo wrote:
Hello zero, welcome to the forum.

I will respond some of your points:

Quote :
And i travel the internet like many others searching for new understanding of society...
Which society? No, I'm not being facetious, I'm making a crucially important point.

Quote :
1, anarcho-capitalism would not maximize utility
Whose utility?

Quote :
3. Can such a pure form exist, since within competitiion collusion is inevitable and must it be at least discouraged through law?
Collusion is far easier when there is a government to support it through law. Governments are the biggest block to competition in history.

Quote :
5. capitalism requiring growth to exist. how can you have growth, and encourage growth in a planet with limited resources.
Through innovation and new technology.

Quote :
6.In a voluntary society without state, how do you prevent "force " from occurring and still force people to volunteer. In order to force volunteerism seems you would be walking the line of communsim or fascism. In order to make such a thing work you would need volunteers and be able to prevent any force. How can these to co-exist.
If you want protection from force you may hire private security agencies on a voluntary basis. BTW "forc[ing] volunteerism" is a contradiction in terms.


perhaps i should have used general population since society implies statism.

if you have the money to hire a private security force.
tend too believe only those with the gold will have it the rest of us will live in chaos.

i have begun reading the links on the other site. sad to say but it will take some time for me to get through them since i have limited time (work, family etc.) and kept falling asleep trying to read . Also a.d.d. so my concentration is often lacking. Long days for me at times lol.

perhaps you could aid me buy giving some examples of what you believe and a synopsis of how a prospective system would actually work in practice.

In return i will explain a little about myself. i didnt graduate college but was a economics major. not that i learned much. i have certifications realestate related which is the majority of my background and i own a small amount of rental property. have a family. i work a reg. job and am a reg. joe. Have been in business before but currently am not and i spend most of my research time trying to follow hints of the future crashing of the economy just so i can say i seen it coming. i pre-emptivley exited most of my stock postions before this latest crash (so i guess i have some intelligence since i was getting nervous before hand) but dont believe i am wealthy i am far from it. Though i survive. I tend to think right wing but am a member of no political party.;
This is a very nice forum. Seems to lack membership and appears from what i have come accross to have begun on a previous dispute which is none of my concern so i wont delve into that.
Whereever, whatever, (i read some of it) caused this forum to come into being. blah blah blah . (seems it followed you here and you returned the hate and discontent lol)
well i guess who cares.

just stating so you dont think i am here to troll you.
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CovOps

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PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:45 pm

Well, Nemo will deal with the rest of your output, while I'll just cover this:

Quote :
Whereever, whatever, (i read some of it) caused this forum to come into being. blah blah blah . (seems it followed you here and you returned the hate and discontent lol)

ROFL

PS. Don't just anticipate the next catastrophic downturn, but make a killing out of it instead!
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zero




PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:59 pm

@CovOps wrote:
Well, Nemo will deal with the rest of your output, while I'll just cover this:

Quote :
Whereever, whatever, (i read some of it) caused this forum to come into being. blah blah blah . (seems it followed you here and you returned the hate and discontent lol)

ROFL

PS. Don't just anticipate the next catastrophic downturn, but make a killing out of it instead!


i don't assume there will be a normal recovery.

my current goal is to have no debt. and lots of ammo.


and you just shortchanged me. you didnt provide any info about your beliefs, or yourself.

(and yeah. i am not taking either side i am impartial since i dont care to know, or know, or know any of you. some of what i read though was however amusing. ROFL )
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PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:07 pm

Quote :
and you just shortchanged me. you didnt provide any info about your beliefs, or yourself.

I did no such thing...

You forget that you replied to Nemo, hence he'll answer you... I just interjected with a small comment.
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RR Phantom

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PostSubject: Re: i am zero   Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:14 am

@zero wrote:
perhaps i should have used general population since society implies statism.
Actually, using society to refer to the general population is the problem. Used that way it's not very meaningful (in a political sense) to individualists, and all too useful for the statists--ever heard of the phrase: "your duty to society" to justify any number of unchosen obligations to people you don't know?

Note the etymology of the word:

1531, "friendly association with others," from O.Fr. societe, from L. societatem (nom. societas), from the latin root "socius" : ally, companion, known associate."

Do you associate with all 6 billion people on the planet? The term has been hijacked to sucker you in to
imaginary relations with people you have no contact with, e.g. the "social contract."


Quote :
if you have the money to hire a private security force.
If you want something you gotta pay for it, yes?

Quote :
tend too believe only those with the gold will have it the rest of us will live in chaos.
Do you have a rational basis for that belief, or is it prejudice?

Quote :
perhaps you could aid me buy giving some examples of what you believe and a synopsis of how a prospective system would actually work in practice.
I believe every individual should be the sole author of his/her own life, i.e., they have the right to chose their own values and act for them, and nobody else may substitute their judgment for that of the individual. This implies voluntary "friendly association with others." This is obviously a direct threat to all governments, who, by definition, are here to tell you what's best for you and that you're bloody well going to pay for it whether you like it or not!

:To help:

Practical Examples? They already exist: E-bay, the black markets, most personal relationships. Legal redress is currently too expensive for many people and that doesn't seem to prevent them trading. I see Covops has addressed some of this in other threads.


A one-sentence summary of Ancap...
At barrel of gun
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